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Post by MikeH on Apr 28, 2014 7:45:01 GMT -5
Anyone growing Tim Peter's rye? I've got some of his mountaineer and his millwright. It looks like a lot of it overwinter for the second winter although I'm not sure if the ice layer that we had from the December storm might not have kept the ground from freezing as much as it normally does.
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Post by nicolas on Apr 30, 2014 1:09:55 GMT -5
I've been interested in perennial grains a few months ago thanks to your posts and it is now very hard to find commercial sources of perennial rye or wheat, i was wondering why it is the case ? Do these grains are not hardy enough or have big flaws such that nurseries dont want to sell it or customers dont want to buy it anymore ?
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Post by MikeH on Apr 30, 2014 9:21:43 GMT -5
I've been interested in perennial grains a few months ago thanks to your posts and it is now very hard to find commercial sources of perennial rye or wheat, i was wondering why it is the case ? Do these grains are not hardy enough or have big flaws such that nurseries dont want to sell it or customers dont want to buy it anymore ? Good question. I got my Mountaineer from Patrick Weibe. In 2012, I got Millwright from Adaptive Seeds. They haven't carried it since then although I offered to do some seed swapping with them. I suspect that they didn't grow what they were selling. It seems to me that perennial grains are an ideal permaculture crop - perenniality, storability, nutrition, cold hardy and yet none of the plant geek permies like Eric Toensmeier thinks that it's ready for distribution, ie, the yields are too low. I suspect that he has no first hand experience with it and is only echoing the Land Institute. It seems to me that there are two types of yield. The first is the commercial yield requirement. Farmers need close to if not the same net yield from perennial grains that they get from annual grains in order to make their bank payments. And then there is the smallholder yield. I just need a yield that fills my belly reliably and regeneratively with a positive energy out to energy in ratio. It may also be that grains are "politically" unacceptable to some hard core permies who could be the ones to develop and disseminate the seed. They certainly have a difficult time accepting that annual vegetables are a critical part of cold, not temperate, climate permaculture. There may also be a large year to year failure rate simply because we don't know how to grow these grains. I believe, though I have nothing yet to confirm it, that perenniality in cold climates is a function of how well developed the roots are, ie, how far down they reach to escape the worst of the cold. Root depth is difficult to achieve in a single growing season especially if the plant's energy is being diverted into seed production. In a paper, Prospects for Developing Perennial Grain Crops, there is this comment about sorghum: In a temperate climate, production of rhizomes does not guarantee that a sorghum plant will regrow the following spring; rhizomes buried in the soil through the winter must have the capacity either to survive periods of exposure to freezing temperatures or to grow deeply enough to escape freezing.
If sorghum, why not all perennial grains? It certainly is the case for many perennial flowers. If the roots don't establish deeply enough, the flowers die.
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Post by natekleinmanefn on Apr 10, 2015 10:49:05 GMT -5
MikeH, I'd be very interested in swapping some seeds with you. As part of the Experimental Farm Network (EFN) collection, I've got lots of interesting germplasm (mainly from the government) which would be cool to cross with some of your Peters' seed. I don't have a list handy, but we have various perennial wild ryes (some of which already have relatively large grains), and wild rye relatives.
I believe there won't be any "viable" perennial grains without a massive participatory breeding effort. It will probably take a couple decades, but I don't think there's any more important work to be doing right now. (Though I'm still doing plenty!) It was actually a Toensmeier talk at the 2013 Permaculture Convergence in Quebec that made me realize I should be focusing on organizing participatory plant breeding. He sailed through so many species just ripe for innovation and especially perennial development (not just grains, but oilseeds like crambe).
Incidentally, and probably worth starting another thread about: we successfully overwintered (in a greenhouse in Philly) two individual perennial sorghum plants of the variety known as "Kapupu." The slow-growing main stalks died - either from a couple extra cold nights or perhaps irregular watering - but last week we noticed new growth from the base. We have one seedling this year from another variety called "Fisali." Both are from Zambia originally. I know Tim Peters managed to get a perennial sorghum going in the Pacific Northwest, though I haven't found any seed for his stuff yet (I understand there may still be a patch somewhere). I'm optimistic we'll be able to do the same one day for the mid-Atlantic, maybe even Northeast - for sugar production (and animal forage), at least, if not for grain too.
PM me or email nathankleinman@gmail.com to explore further. Thanks!
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Post by Graham on Apr 22, 2015 16:06:40 GMT -5
I know through email conversations with Tim that he's just resurrected some of his perennial sorghum lines. It may be worth introducing yourself and inquiring about a seed swap when he's bulked up his supplies. I've always found Tim to be very generous with sharing his seed and his knowledge. He's not hugely active on facebook (so it may take a while), but if you message him there I'm sure he'll get back to you.
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Post by Walt on Mar 2, 2018 13:32:41 GMT -5
I recently talked to Dr. Lee De Han and Dr. Stan Cox of The Land Institute. Also attended last year's Prairie Festival there and heard an update on their work. They have given up on T, aestivum (hexaploid wheat) x Thinopyrum species. They aren't stable as amphiploids and they don't survive summers here. It is too hot and dry. But they are having much better luck with T, turgidum (tetraploid wheat) x Thinopyron species. The fewer chromosomes are more stable and the fewer wheat chromosomes make it more heat and drought tolerant. Kernza Thinopyron intermedium, intermediate wheatgrass, is now being test grown by several farmers. It's yield is low compared to wheat, but it gives a good crop of hay after the grain is harvested. Beer is being made from it by a company whose name I don't recall just now. The beer is available in only a few states due to beer-selling laws. About perennial sorghum. Stan has had good results with S. bicolor X johnson grass grown for a few generations and selected for winter survival, then backcrossing to S. bicolor and again selecting for survival for a few generations and again backcrossing to S. bicolor. The Land Institute's publication, The Land Report, says that after all these generations, they finally had crossover, it seems, that breaks a linkage between small seeds and winter hardiness. The Land Report also says sugarcane aphid, which has been spreading into Kansas, killed or badly damaged most of their perennial breeding lines of sorghum. But a few showed little or no damage, so they may have resistant or tolerant lines.
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Post by Walt on Mar 2, 2018 13:41:39 GMT -5
As for perennial rye, it's been 40 years since I've tried to grown Secale montanum and a couple of other species her in central Kansas. Never mind crossing domestic rye with them. They don't survive my summers. Better luck elsewhere I hope. I would like to try an amphiploid intermediate wheatgrss x rye. Such has been made, but I cannot find a source. It is reported to be a more difficult cross than wheat x intermediate wheatgrass.
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